It's really just any tools that you want to build right now because we... Literally the world is your oyster right now when it comes to being able to build software. I mean, it is pretty amazing what you can, what you can start, right? And I think we already talked about this before we started, but it's never been easier to start software. Like, it is so easy to at least get a prototype running. But the deeper you go into working with software, the more you realise that it's not so fun after the initial excitement is over.

[Laughter] Nathan Gotch: Once that wears off and you got to actually deal with bugs and you got to deal with, if you have customers, dealing with challenges they're facing and edge cases, and it becomes quite challenging to say the least.

Yeah, 100%. And, you know, today I'm kind of jumping forward. But, you know, with AI, we didn't have access to that like nobody did, right? And so I can't tell you how many tens of thousands of hours I spent coding and reversing, debugging, all of that. And a lot of it's frustrating and it's painful and it's part of the process. And, you know, every once in a while you get a good win and it makes it all worth it. And even if you fail, you're learning a ton. And now with everyone vibe coding, there's that big gap between how you get that experience that most of us got on the job for years, having to do things manually when everything's just handed to you.